Book Based Panthers (BBP) announcement

The announcement


This Group caters for panther tribes who internally may not wish to be full BTB but in their external RP wish to interact in a book based way with BTB Lands of Gor. It will provide a common interface defined by set of rule’s or ‘protocols’ these will be added as an annex by all  BBP member Tribes to their own rule set (defining BTB Role Play scenario’s) Invitation to the Group is by each tribe En or assigned BBP Tribe Officer. It prescribes internally to tribes following RP to the genre of the Gor Novels

Starting membership will be  Sa Di Sani, Sa’Jesuil,  Di’Jan, Sa Ki Fori, Forest Moon, Zima Akam, Kar’Sa’Hesa; tribes wishing to join the group should read the rules and story line and if they agree to them and will be welcomed. The En of a tribe wishing to join can approach any of En’s of tribes above to apply for membership for their tribe. Tribe En’s will be made Officers of group with ability to add and remove members; NOTE – this is not open membership group.

Tribes that join BBP will act in a way that is BTB when facing role play with BTB SIM’s as defined in the rules attached.

Tribes joining the BBP group will add the rules to their own, by adopting them and role playing within these rules they can face into either BTB SIM’s or continue to interact with GE SIM’s as currently. Tribes joining the group, as now, may declare themselves internally to be be either BTB, GE; (note: joining BBP and adopting the rules defined below they could also state themselves to be just BBP tribes). The intention is to promote what has become almost non existent Role Play between BTB SIM’s and BBP Panther tribes, as defined in the Novels of Gor.

Tribes who join BBP may have individuals within their group who do not want this type of role play, they can opt out by not individually joining the group and stating this in their personal limits. If the prospect of interacting with BTB SIM’s, or for BTB Players with GE SIM’s, is not the role play they wish, and they do not want to play in the opposing SIM’s, then they will be expected to clearly state this in their personal limits. If a member of a BBP tribe but opting out they will be expected to accept binds but NOT be expected to be sailed off their own sim.

Tribes that are members BBP will automatically have the En of tribe to join a Council of En’s to ensure the correct rules of Role Play are followed. This forum will be available as a point of resolution for BTB SIM’s who have issues they wish to raise, and also be responsible in their tribe for following RP story line.

The rules and story line are included below; Tribes should display a graphic sign at the SIM entrance to show they are a ‘BBP Tribe’ containing BBP rules.

Charter and rules

Story line

City reference guide

© Lizz Dawes



  1. Well. Being a member of sa di sani. IM pissed that i now have to act btb when i HATE btb Sims. So whoever thought of this. Thanks a bunch. Sarcasim intended.

  2. Well, having heard about this ‘idea’ a little while ago, I had to laugh after having seen the proposal in full. It reeks of failure, being an ill thought out and poorly planned / realized concept that completely fails to address the current state of panther roleplay in SL and their interaction with BTB groups. The fact that all this amounts to is a few vague guidelines rather than something that has been locked-in with an exacting set of rules only proves a point I continually make, and that is that groups and sim owners continue to bias their thinking and decisions based on whats best for themselves, as opposed to what is best and fairest for Gor and panther RP as a whole. It’s this selfish and biased attitude that has seen panther groups turn into nothing more than clones of GE Outlaw groups.

    It should amaze me that the majority of groups that have signed up for this BBP idea are in fact the groups that have the MOST trouble in behaving like panthers in any sense of the word, but it doesn’t, in fact it’s entirely predictable and further indication of the current hypocrisy of the vast majority of gorean roleplayers in SL. Apparently, it’s NOT ok to be ungorean when it comes to certain things, but for others things you can be as ungorean as you want, as long as it’s in your favour… hmmm yeah… that will work.. NOT!

    • Eoywn i will have to agree… The whole movement is simply to end certain… “tribes” in gor *cough she-male tribes coughs* Fact alone my partner had one these tribal members and threaten them to selling them to a city their comeback was they were the daughter of the ubar of port kar and he would attack us and kill us all… Another tribe Se Jesuil has a a midget running around that’s barely a 1/4th the size most avatars… IDK if she fights if she does kinda takes the point out of it.. plus I wouldn’t consider it “gorean”. Plus theres already BTB gor if Lizz wants to be BTB she need to call herself and tribe BTB.. This whole BBP simply makes one more genre which today’s gor cannot have…

      • Yep, you’ve shown some valid examples…gorean hypocrisy at it’s finest, and its rampant in panther world now. Any “movement” to try and reform gor and return it to former, better, days surely has to start by those involved practising what they they preach.

        Ironically some of the tribes which certain people want to end seem to offer a far higher standard of RP than these so-called BBP groups, yet they are being forced out over one non-gorean aspect. That’s a bit rich considering the huge amount of non-gorean aspects most of the BBP groups are guilty of. As you said… there’s the midget players, the panthers who somehow think that swords, shields, scythes etc were standard panther fare… then of course there’s the camps… mini fortresses full of mining tunnels , a gazilion doors,and ridiculous ooc sim rules and settings that are unrealistic and designed for the express purpose of gaining a combat advantage, rather than encouraging people to roleplay.

        Panther groups have seemingly gone out of their way to make interaction as difficult as possible by placing up walls (both physical and symbolic) between themselves and every other group… but then aren’t smart enough to see what they’ve done, nor work out why they are getting less and less real roleplay.

        The charter of rules for this BBP just underlines why it wont work, cause there is a whole pile of areas in which BTB and panther groups could roleplay together in a fair environment, with a logical set of rules, yet this charter, for the most part, basically says that individual sims can do what they like. Now why do they say that? Simple, it’s cause no-one could agree, they were too wrapped up in their own vested interests to look at the big picture, and that is why it will fail, and that is why sooner or later all of gor will fail.

        A friend of mine, been a panther for many years, a good roleplayer, said to me once “gor is dying, its best to just enjoy what we have before it’s gone” – I find that a very good conviction to have, but also very sad, because how is it enjoyable to play in an environment that is a mere shadow of what it once was? How many bad days do people endure in gor before they finally get a good one?. Thank goodness roleplay in other places in SL is still thriving!

  3. Well my first response is it is easier to tear something down that to build it up; perhaps you would argue GE has been great for making better RP in Gor, I obviously have a different view; that it has, and is continuing to drive a wedge in the game, as it adds more divergence from the core of the books. Maybe we should, taking your points on board, be best to do nothing.

    To address some of the other points, the first thing that seemed sensible to do was to re-engage with the BTB cities, as most had stopped interacting with GE panther groups. So the rules, which I don’t think are vague, try to bridge the gap that stops us interacting with BTB cities, they are a step towards the BTB SIM’s to allow role play to again engage. However what was also seen as really important was improving the role play and approach within our own tribes and is something we all agreed would would collectively in the background work on. The other area you touched on, which was also agreed, is if possible, a common set of rules for tribes and SIM’s that are fair to all. This is not an overnight job and needs to be fair ro all, some of the SIM’s have 12 pages of rules and, if it is in fact possible, will take a bit of discussion and a lot of agreement to align across us all, so we are seen to be fair and be panther tribes, not as you say ‘clones of outlaw groups’, and in my view the reason GE took off was, like with the birth of Christianity, they let rich women buy their way in to have more power or in the case of GE use weapons.

    The way the rules are made it means any who do not wish to play with BTB SIM’s simply put a note in their limits and do not have to sail. Perhaps you missed the point it tries to re engage with BTB cities and players in a way they will find acceptable. It ring fences the internals of the tribe as not being a part of that as there are players inside these GE tribes that do not want to play this game. I also struggled with the fact is is another genre which is why it was actually intended not to be just an annex to a tribes rules so when cities look to attack they don’t just say it is GE ‘avoid’ as they do now.

    Maybe you are right we should let GE spin off in its own direction with every new imaginative inclusion, stepping it further from the Gor I read about; and I should return to my BTB roots. Or maybe we will try to make this work and if it fails as you predict then we will all give up and say it is all going down the plug hole and there is nothing we can do about it.

    Alternatively if you have a better idea and a plan that can be immaculately implemented. then I will be the first to join your cause.
    Lizz Dawes

    • You have clearly miss-read my comments. I certainly would NOT argue that GE has been great for making better RP in Gor, in fact its quite the opposite, and that is the current problem with panther groups – they have blindly “followed” GE outlaws, mimicking everything from camp design to lax non-gorean characters and ideals. You cant disagree that the current state of panther RP and realism now is very poor compared to 2 or 3 years ago.

      Don’t misunderstand what I am trying to say here… the concept of trying to improve interaction between panthers and BTB places is to be applauded, it makes a lot of sense, tho in fairness any half-realistic panther has had the opportunity to RP with BTB sims any time they like. The problem is the way this cause is being undertaken. As I said, you want to be BBP then fine, but lets see you actually do it – cause as it stands now, I can think of only one GE panther band that is close to being “book based”, and it isnt one of the ones mentioned in the article.

      Sure there are some very realistic players in most camps, unfortunately tho they are usually outnumbered by the rest of their group who seem to have never read a gorean book, and dont really care if they are gorean or not.

      I have to strongly disagree again about the common rules idea. This can be implemented very easily, and would be less than one weeks work, and be totally even and fair for ALL panther groups – but it wont happen, it will take forever. Why? Because every single group will want to retain any advantage they currently have, and they will claim it’s unfair otherwise. This was exactly my point, vested interests prevent group leaders / sim owners from looking at the big picture without being biased. Perhaps the answer here is to get someone out-of-gor to write the rules, someone who has no bias toward group, sim, friends etc.

      You say “we will all give up” – you have already… because panthers in gor got to this point because almost no-one bothered to stop, look around them, and say “woah this isnt gor, we need to sort this out”. What’s happened is that the majority has just gone along for the ride, left everything to “someone else”, or had the attitude “someone else will deal with it” – and now it’s so far gone that to rescue it will take a miracle.

      By all means try to, as I said, anyone or any group that is prepared to at least sit down and start the ball rolling has to be given a thumbs up, but if you arent going to do what you know you have to, then it wont be a success, it will be band aid that will last for so long, before it rips off exposing the wound (issues)again.

      There is a lot of changes that need to be made to the mentioned groups before they can dare call themselves “book-based”, (and yes I have a plan that could be put in place in all GE panther groups within a month), but it wont happen because most of you don’t want to be realistic, or be fair.. the evidence of this is all around, the evidence IS current Sl gor lol. What you want, and unfortunately this is GE all to WIN, and once gor becomes about winning, then roleplay loses out, which is again exactly whats happened.

      You want to be “book based” and realistic, well I wonder then just how many of you would make the changes needed to do that, if it meant that half your interactions with BTB sims resulted in you as a captive of some BTB free-man roleplayer ?

    • Im not against this by any means but then again makes it hard when i see people in the said tribes not acting anything pantherish… 1/4th sized avatar in one… another calling for a city to aid if something happens to her.. Another using various drugs to get what they desire.. None of wish are really BTB.. The problem with 99% of tribes in gor… They sit on their ass and dont do anything all day long cept for a few that go out to rp.. Either way adding another Genre is perhaps not the right thing.. if we can simply get back to 2007 when gor was simply Gor.. There was no definitions of GE BTB whatever, and honestly more i think on it.. I dont know how a panther tribe can be “GE”. Only way they are GE is if they fight groups with female mercs like Ghosts et all.. That simply would be only reason a tribe would be considered GE.. Part that reason im sure BTB stays away they fear some group like that will come running in with mass hordes of Femlaws and ruin the experience in their head..

      • If I can address a few points there Niccole.

        “They sit on their ass and dont do anything all day long” – very true, and the reason for this is that panthers have started to become GE pewpewers, only interested in winning, and never wanting to risk the chance that they lose. Because of this they start to build absurd un-panther camps, mini fortresses that are impossible to assail except for a large group. Of course there ARE no large panther groups left, so all these places end up doing is scare people from their lands. Added to this are biased sim rules and settings to give the home side an ever greater chance at “winning” and all you are left with are camps littered with people manning the walls, but no-one travelling in gor like in the old days. Get rid of the outlaw-style camps, get rid of the biased rules and sim settings, go back to giving others a fair chance, and people will wander sims again. It is so easy to set up a list of do’s and don’ts to get all panther groups working on the same page, but it will never happen while metered combat drives the way people play.

        ” I dont know how a panther tribe can be “GE” ” – easy. They have to call themselves GE for two simple reasons. The first I have mentioned – ungorean camps. BTB players aren’t going to be too interested in attempting to steal any panthers if every camp they turn up to resembles an outlaw fortress. The second reason is that most panthers in gor seem to be lesbians (lol) which again creates issues for any BTB players interested in the more usual panther/free RP cause they know that any sexual RP (or any RP at all) is going to be unlikely. BTB’ers don’t have this issue with the few BTB Panther groups because most (if not all) of those panthers are straight, and therefore a much better match for BTB men.

        Anyway this BBP topic is like flogging a dead horse to me. I’ve spoken to a number of people about it and it’s no surprise that I usually get one of 3 standard responses, the “I just go along with my group and dont care” response, the “I’m just here for fun and don’t worry about being realistic” response, or the “you make a lot of sense but I would rather keep any advantage my group/camp has” response.

        So you get apathy or selfishness.. take your pick lol.

        I’ll send you an IM inworld about other RP places. I dont want to mention non-gor rp on a gorean blog.

      • Part i dont agree with is the fort… Though yes some panther camps have been hidious in the past…Ive seen some recent supposedly BTB camps that are just as Quote unquote… built to win… Obviously we cannot build like the books unless we enforced a realism hud which removed mini mappping and radars and camming… That aint happening. For one i highly doubt BTB will wear RLV for the “men fighters” 2. Alot of tribes today still rely on GE for traffic.. This would kill that as well… I dont know how one would resolve this… A Lot of camps do suck but the meter sucks just as bad… I do regret in my time in DiJan that i didnt push as hard as i did like getting them to leave the panther alliances to fix their camp.. Obviously the higher ups get people to build camps that have no clue how to build…
        Do agree most seem tobe lezbo man hating rpers and its been 3-4 years of that so will be really hard to shake that off…

  4. When Liz started the BBP initiative, I was pretty skeptic as many things can’t be easily codified, most of movements start from effort of individuals. Anyway it all crystallized in kind of manifest helping to agree on few common rules renewing potential possibility for roleplayers to play with cities and will of city people to renew conditions for that. It would be wrong to assume the started concept will change things itself. It would be also wrong to think .. well, lets be BBP … and all will change suddenly, roleplay will be better etc. etc. As I said at the start, it’s all about people to take the chance and to use the initiative to make it work, to resurrect almost dead phenomenon of roleplay by own effort. I also suppose the concept will crystallize more, there are people willing to follow it and to make it work, there are people who are not. The concept is not for all, is not mandatory for anyone and it’s just in state TAKE IT OR LET IT BE.
    I personally will take it and will do my best to support Liz in making the concept work, I dill do my best to try resurrect roleplay on Gor.

  5. BBP membership is not mandatory in these tribes , it is an interface to help panther players to interact with BtB cities. Those players that don’t want to interact with BtB can simply choose not to join BBP and opt out. It is up to the individual , though my hope is that in time more will join BBP. Though it will need continued support for it to succeed or else it will die like Council of Tribal Leaders did.
    It has been too long since BtB players came to GE panther sims to raid. The last such raid I personally recall is more than a year ago. Nowadays, the majority of GE panthers raid other panthers or sit around in their camp fortresses. It is a cycle of cap , wait 90 minutes and raid to free , then rinse and repeat, there no longer are role play storylines to speak of. Flame me if you like , but at least Luna tried something different with their swamp, not just another panther fortress. But , no one likes losing and a fort is just easier to defend, right? Role play has become secondary, winning is all important.
    It is understandable BtB men don’t fancy raiding panthers anymore, so I guess I have to make the effort to seek them out, show them it is worth their time to interact with me. This also means that as a BBP member I have to portray the panther role as strictly female, sexually attractive and heterosexual when interacting with BtB men. It means my avatar will dress as closely as possible to a panther girl, will carry only spears , knives and bows. If I should be lucky enough in capturing a male my avatar will have the strength of a twelve year old and thus won’t be able to leash and drag him over ground.
    Those that opt out can continue with their bisexuality/lesbianism/ male dangly bits. They can keep their huge swords/xena strength whatever, it is their choice! Those with BBP in their profile will accept being captured by BtB men and taken from sim and role play accordingly. Those without will accept binds and not sail.

    • Not against it but not for it… I dont need some label just to play a certain way.. Why cannot we agree and reset gor back to circa 2007-2008…Why make labels just to play a certain way? I dont want to-be labeled as GE or BTB or BPP.. Why not just put BTB in your profile if you wish to act play with BTB sims? Its simply fracturing an already fractured gor. I will myself continue to interact with GE BTB whatever and rp the genre im playing.. Simply Gor.

      We never hope or care for rescues we are always here for roleplay. I find it funny when we get banned from places or threated with it when we deny trades because we wish to role play captives

      I still get the feeling this is some weird attempt to get pew from BTB cities so you can have the mental thrill of being a city slut for a few hours without the risk of being their permanently.

      We have a lot of interaction with BTB as is i dont see why is so difficult to make another group just to interact witih a different fraction in gor.. Trust me your not missing out on much if you want a BTB raid against your tribe.. Cept for the few cities that have super bow fighters as alts or that go to raid most btb would lose even to weak tribes in SL so unless you simply lay down and lose you have that to overcome as well..

      Again im not against it but im not for this yet think a lot of changes need to be done before i put any weight behind this.

  6. Niccole; I don’t think for one minute we got everything right, nor would I hope we stick our head in the sand and say that is how it is like it or lump it. The object is as Marli wrote above. But it is early days and we need to tweak this as we learn. If you have any suggestions on improving thing please say them we are open to suggestions that can be embraced by all; the only thing we want is to make the game better and more fun for all; I think Marli hit the nail on the head above


    • As i said is simple to fix… Remove BTB/BBP/GE from the mix and problem is solved… Our tribe has zero issues playing with BTB sims. We’ve been raided by them too and raid them. We go to RP them.. Why is it so easy for us? We dont label ourselves as BTB we dont label ourselves as BPP we dont label ourselves as GE.. We simply label our tribe as Gorean Panthers… If you really want to fix things you need to fix the GM meter to start with… I would script a meter but i wont for two reasons… One i know Alika would make every attempt to discredit it say it was hacked or some damn thing and B. Adoption would never take off due to the fact is all about Money and traffic… New meter would kill traffic unless the entire gor embraced it then perhaps you could solve problem A. GE GE2.0 and BTB… There too many Damn Fractions in gor.

      I think Eowyn said it best, biggest problem are these monstrosities of forts people have built.. I have really yet to see one well built fort.. Obviously with Mini mapping Ventrillo etc we have to adjust but some panther camps i see currently in todays gor i could sit there and easily take out 30 people alone..

  7. The SaVella and Talender moons camps are the best examples in current GE (that i am aware of) that show it’s possible to build fair simple forts. It’s no coincidence that many of the members of both these groups seem to have almost zero interest in meter combat, which may explain their more rp-focused camps.

    Sure those place wont win any beauty awards, but that’s another topic… do you build sims and camps that focus on looks and rp or do you build them with a focus on combat… often you cant have both.

    I’d love to see a “non-combatant” setting added to the meter like CCS or DCS – something that allows rp’ers to remain in character without fear of being mowed down by idiot bored pewpewers.

    Now, to touch on what Mali said, especially her last comments:

    “This also means that as a BBP member I have to portray the panther role as strictly female, sexually attractive and heterosexual when interacting with BtB men. It means my avatar will dress as closely as possible to a panther girl, will carry only spears , knives and bows. If I should be lucky enough in capturing a male my avatar will have the strength of a twelve year old and thus won’t be able to leash and drag him over ground.”

    To echo Niccole’s comments, why do you need a specific label just because you’ve decided to play properly? You’ve just described a normal panther.. why label it? Surely you are just being “gorean”?

    People have forgotten what GE means, it was a means to allow a little more freedom, especially regarding womens roles in combat and slaves roles in combat.. otherwise it was still supposed to be Gorean.

    Everyone has lost sight of that now. and now GE effectively means no more than “I use a bow and wear the GM meter”… every other aspect of gor has been perverted to an extreme level by GE…. but when you call people out on it, they wave the “it’s GE” in your face as tho that excusing them from actually being in any way gorean.

    Someone sticking BBP in their profile whilst they, or their other band members, continue to generally do very little thats actually gorean, isn’t going to achieve much, especially with BTB book thumpers.

  8. To the two posts above; I do see a lot of sense in the thought to drop all labels and just be Gorean. In fact my own limits say this “Some Play BTB some GE I just play Gor” and has said that for years. I also completely agree with both points in the above summarised as “GE now means – then I have a bow and a GM meter”. The BBP thing was really a reaction to the ‘anything can go’ GE inclusions to Gor. As I said at the very start I supported GE when it came in as way for a little more freedom from book bashing, but I have just gotten saddened how far it has drifted away from the basic core premis. There was/is now an issue within BTB that having now so many of us had labeled ourselves GE in role play and the drift from the core story line means we are all discredited and being accepting of the extreme fringe, and this has been bad for all. In away BBP just means we will play it right with a bit of flex on perm-caps and rescues. Perhaps the route should be to take some of the raid rescue rules in BBP integrate them into all our rules and we just all drop all the labels. I also agree completely on fortresses which is why we have no more gates or lock doors in our camp. Sadly I am not clever enough to code a combat meter probably couldn’t even write the code for a door bell!


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